1 00:00:11,410 --> 00:00:09,110 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:14,180 --> 00:00:11,420 with Michael Tim about his new book 3 00:00:15,890 --> 00:00:14,190 resurrecting Leah Nora Piper you know I 4 00:00:18,980 --> 00:00:15,900 think there's two ways we can look at 5 00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:18,990 all this information about this period 6 00:00:23,420 --> 00:00:21,510 we can look at it in terms of forgotten 7 00:00:26,210 --> 00:00:23,430 history which is I think the angle that 8 00:00:27,740 --> 00:00:26,220 you take you know but I got a wonder if 9 00:00:29,269 --> 00:00:27,750 there isn't a totally different way of 10 00:00:33,799 --> 00:00:29,279 looking at this history and that's 11 00:00:37,490 --> 00:00:33,809 almost like a textbook game plan for the 12 00:00:40,549 --> 00:00:37,500 kind of scientism for the kind of spirit 13 00:00:42,979 --> 00:00:40,559 of denial that we live in today I mean 14 00:00:45,910 --> 00:00:42,989 it's almost like hey if you want to look 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:45,920 at how to take overwhelmingly 16 00:00:50,900 --> 00:00:48,930 significant evidence in Burien sweep it 17 00:00:52,610 --> 00:00:50,910 under the rug and embarrass all the 18 00:00:54,319 --> 00:00:52,620 people who've touched it here's the way 19 00:00:56,810 --> 00:00:54,329 to do it just go back and look at this 20 00:00:58,549 --> 00:00:56,820 part of history I agree I mean that's 21 00:01:00,349 --> 00:00:58,559 one of the reasons I wrote this book and 22 00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:00,359 for other books that I've written is to 23 00:01:05,320 --> 00:01:02,129 try and resurrect this stuff because 24 00:01:07,250 --> 00:01:05,330 it's so little-known I know a number of 25 00:01:09,020 --> 00:01:07,260 parapsychologists you know I've talked 26 00:01:10,429 --> 00:01:09,030 to a number of parapsychologists and 27 00:01:10,820 --> 00:01:10,439 they don't know it themselves that you 28 00:01:12,469 --> 00:01:10,830 know you 29 00:01:15,700 --> 00:01:12,479 I remember one who didn't even know 30 00:01:19,070 --> 00:01:15,710 Frederick Myers was and you talk about 31 00:01:21,410 --> 00:01:19,080 you know a piper Sir Oliver Lodge or 32 00:01:22,940 --> 00:01:21,420 Gladys Osborne Leonard and they're all 33 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:22,950 names they recognize that they don't 34 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:25,770 know any of the history stay with us for 35 00:01:40,670 --> 00:01:39,080 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 36 00:01:43,070 --> 00:01:40,680 controversial science with leading 37 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:43,080 researchers thinkers and their critics 38 00:01:48,620 --> 00:01:45,450 I'm your host Alex Karras and on this 39 00:01:50,389 --> 00:01:48,630 episode we welcome back Michael Tim to 40 00:01:53,770 --> 00:01:50,399 talk about his new book resurrecting 41 00:01:56,779 --> 00:01:53,780 Leonora Piper and to explore this 42 00:01:58,490 --> 00:01:56,789 fascinating part of history of a little 43 00:02:00,170 --> 00:01:58,500 more than 100 years ago you know I'm a 44 00:02:02,210 --> 00:02:00,180 big fan of history 45 00:02:04,999 --> 00:02:02,220 I love the perspective it gives us on 46 00:02:07,850 --> 00:02:05,009 our modern everyday world and I think 47 00:02:09,889 --> 00:02:07,860 that's especially true of the kind of 48 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:09,899 work that mike tim has done with this 49 00:02:17,270 --> 00:02:13,410 early part of the 1900s because what 50 00:02:19,460 --> 00:02:17,280 really jumps out at me is how smart 51 00:02:22,130 --> 00:02:19,470 these people are you know we tend to 52 00:02:24,229 --> 00:02:22,140 think that we're so smart advanced and 53 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:24,239 we have Google and our phones and all 54 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:26,250 that stuff and then you go back and you 55 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:29,370 read how these people spoke and how they 56 00:02:33,979 --> 00:02:31,290 wrote and you feel well at least I do 57 00:02:36,949 --> 00:02:33,989 like these people aren't my equals 58 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:36,959 they're my superiors in terms of 59 00:02:41,690 --> 00:02:39,690 intellectual firepower and I hope you'll 60 00:02:43,130 --> 00:02:41,700 prove that to yourself by picking up a 61 00:02:45,350 --> 00:02:43,140 copy of Michael Tim's latest book 62 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:45,360 resurrecting loner Piper or any of his 63 00:02:49,729 --> 00:02:47,010 previous books or you can go and just 64 00:02:53,270 --> 00:02:49,739 read the original works by William James 65 00:02:55,670 --> 00:02:53,280 and Frederik Meijer and all the rest and 66 00:02:58,460 --> 00:02:55,680 I think you'll come away equally 67 00:03:01,340 --> 00:02:58,470 impressed but let's get on to the 68 00:03:04,220 --> 00:03:01,350 interview that I just had with Mike Tim 69 00:03:06,300 --> 00:03:04,230 on his latest book resurrecting Leonora 70 00:03:09,150 --> 00:03:06,310 Piper here goes 71 00:03:11,580 --> 00:03:09,160 today we welcome Michael Tim to skeptic 72 00:03:14,309 --> 00:03:11,590 Oh Mike is the author of several books 73 00:03:17,030 --> 00:03:14,319 relating to afterlife communication and 74 00:03:20,699 --> 00:03:17,040 mediumship including the articulate dead 75 00:03:22,729 --> 00:03:20,709 the afterlife revealed and his latest 76 00:03:26,010 --> 00:03:22,739 that we're going to talk about today 77 00:03:28,949 --> 00:03:26,020 resurrecting Leonora Piper how science 78 00:03:31,229 --> 00:03:28,959 discovered the afterlife it's a book 79 00:03:33,570 --> 00:03:31,239 published by white crow books which is a 80 00:03:36,630 --> 00:03:33,580 place where you'll also find Mike's 81 00:03:38,430 --> 00:03:36,640 excellent blog Mike welcome back to 82 00:03:40,620 --> 00:03:38,440 skeptic oh it's great to talk to you 83 00:03:44,009 --> 00:03:40,630 again thank you very much for having me 84 00:03:47,190 --> 00:03:44,019 on out so you've written this book about 85 00:03:50,460 --> 00:03:47,200 Leonora Piper someone who many people 86 00:03:53,670 --> 00:03:50,470 who are interested in mediumship and 87 00:03:55,199 --> 00:03:53,680 history in general might know but I 88 00:03:58,199 --> 00:03:55,209 think there's a lot of people who don't 89 00:04:01,020 --> 00:03:58,209 know who Leonora Piper was so I guess 90 00:04:04,350 --> 00:04:01,030 that's the natural place to start okay 91 00:04:07,140 --> 00:04:04,360 Lenora Piper was an American woman born 92 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:07,150 in Nashua New Hampshire in 1859 she 93 00:04:13,650 --> 00:04:10,090 discovered her mediumistic ability 94 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:13,660 sometime around 1883 when she was what 95 00:04:19,580 --> 00:04:16,690 24 at the time her father-in-law had 96 00:04:22,110 --> 00:04:19,590 suggested that she see a psychic healer 97 00:04:24,029 --> 00:04:22,120 for some problem she was having at the 98 00:04:26,670 --> 00:04:24,039 time and while she was seeing the 99 00:04:28,860 --> 00:04:26,680 psychic healer she dropped off into a 100 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:28,870 trance and she started giving 101 00:04:35,340 --> 00:04:31,570 information to another person in the 102 00:04:37,650 --> 00:04:35,350 room a doctor about his deceased son so 103 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:37,660 that's how she came to realize that she 104 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:39,610 had mediumistic ability and then she 105 00:04:44,100 --> 00:04:42,010 started experimenting with it now and 106 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:44,110 then with friends then somewhere along 107 00:04:49,380 --> 00:04:46,770 the line at first year William James's 108 00:04:52,469 --> 00:04:49,390 mother William James being professor of 109 00:04:55,620 --> 00:04:52,479 psychology at Harvard she had a sitting 110 00:04:58,680 --> 00:04:55,630 with Eleonora and found it very 111 00:05:01,159 --> 00:04:58,690 evidential and cold her husband William 112 00:05:03,750 --> 00:05:01,169 James all about it so William James had 113 00:05:07,710 --> 00:05:03,760 his own sitting and was very much 114 00:05:11,130 --> 00:05:07,720 impressed and as a result he signed up 115 00:05:14,700 --> 00:05:11,140 Leonore to be a recent update for the 116 00:05:17,399 --> 00:05:14,710 next 18 years or so okay and and I still 117 00:05:19,260 --> 00:05:17,409 feel and it's lien aura so I apologize 118 00:05:20,159 --> 00:05:19,270 for that I'll have to do that correctly 119 00:05:22,529 --> 00:05:20,169 from here on 120 00:05:24,899 --> 00:05:22,539 but I do feel we need to lay the 121 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:24,909 backdrop here right I mean because she 122 00:05:30,749 --> 00:05:28,930 goes on to become the white crow that 123 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:30,759 many people will will know who know 124 00:05:35,070 --> 00:05:33,490 William James know that his famous quote 125 00:05:37,589 --> 00:05:35,080 about there being there only needs to be 126 00:05:39,929 --> 00:05:37,599 one white crow to prove not all crows 127 00:05:43,230 --> 00:05:39,939 are black and he's really talking about 128 00:05:46,110 --> 00:05:43,240 psychic ability and ability to talk with 129 00:05:47,730 --> 00:05:46,120 the dead but the the timeframe that 130 00:05:49,260 --> 00:05:47,740 we're really talking about here and the 131 00:05:52,010 --> 00:05:49,270 backdrop of that is is interesting 132 00:05:56,369 --> 00:05:52,020 because we're coming out of a period 133 00:05:59,579 --> 00:05:56,379 with Darwinism with reason with a move 134 00:06:02,760 --> 00:05:59,589 away from religious thought into this 135 00:06:05,670 --> 00:06:02,770 explosion of scientific free thought and 136 00:06:08,459 --> 00:06:05,680 now here are these folks at the same 137 00:06:10,980 --> 00:06:08,469 time who start getting this inkling that 138 00:06:11,850 --> 00:06:10,990 this spiritualism might have some real 139 00:06:15,149 --> 00:06:11,860 legs to it 140 00:06:18,269 --> 00:06:15,159 can you fill in some of the history gaps 141 00:06:20,489 --> 00:06:18,279 that I'm leaving out there sure first of 142 00:06:22,079 --> 00:06:20,499 all as far as mrs. Piper's first name 143 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:22,089 it's it's Leonora 144 00:06:26,429 --> 00:06:24,250 Orlin or lorros her nickname and Lia 145 00:06:29,790 --> 00:06:26,439 Nora was her full-range so either one is 146 00:06:32,159 --> 00:06:29,800 correct on that but as far as psychical 147 00:06:35,399 --> 00:06:32,169 research we formal psychical research 148 00:06:37,170 --> 00:06:35,409 didn't really begin until 1882 when the 149 00:06:39,990 --> 00:06:37,180 Society for psychical research was 150 00:06:42,570 --> 00:06:40,000 formed in London and then three years 151 00:06:45,510 --> 00:06:42,580 later it was for the American branch was 152 00:06:47,550 --> 00:06:45,520 also formed but it really goes back into 153 00:06:50,129 --> 00:06:47,560 the 11th century I guess you could say 154 00:06:52,950 --> 00:06:50,139 when the Catholic Church was setting 155 00:06:57,059 --> 00:06:52,960 down formal guidelines for investigation 156 00:07:01,260 --> 00:06:57,069 of miracles involving saints and then we 157 00:07:03,269 --> 00:07:01,270 jump up to 1741 there abouts when an 158 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:03,279 annual Swedenborg was doing his own 159 00:07:08,429 --> 00:07:04,930 personal investigation of afterlife 160 00:07:11,519 --> 00:07:08,439 realms by means of clairvoyant mmm 161 00:07:13,230 --> 00:07:11,529 out-of-body experiences or whatever he 162 00:07:14,790 --> 00:07:13,240 was doing he was going into the heavens 163 00:07:16,619 --> 00:07:14,800 and reporting on it there wasn't 164 00:07:19,559 --> 00:07:16,629 research with anybody else but it was 165 00:07:21,139 --> 00:07:19,569 his own personal research and Swedenborg 166 00:07:25,670 --> 00:07:21,149 is sometimes called the first 167 00:07:29,969 --> 00:07:25,680 spiritualist they would jump up to the 168 00:07:31,830 --> 00:07:29,979 key event then on March 31st 1848 which 169 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:31,840 was the 170 00:07:38,010 --> 00:07:35,650 Fox sisters in Hinesville New York that 171 00:07:39,990 --> 00:07:38,020 sort of kicked everything off I'm sure 172 00:07:42,780 --> 00:07:40,000 many of your listeners have heard that 173 00:07:45,930 --> 00:07:42,790 story and their questions about it 174 00:07:48,180 --> 00:07:45,940 but in effect they heard knocks around 175 00:07:49,950 --> 00:07:48,190 the house and they and they had been 176 00:07:53,719 --> 00:07:49,960 hearing them for a number of weeks and 177 00:07:55,439 --> 00:07:53,729 all of a sudden these two young girls 178 00:07:57,659 --> 00:07:55,449 realized that they could communicate 179 00:08:01,650 --> 00:07:57,669 with the knocks they get three knocks 180 00:08:03,510 --> 00:08:01,660 and had knocked back a certain number of 181 00:08:05,940 --> 00:08:03,520 times and get the same number knocks 182 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:05,950 back and then then they realized that if 183 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:08,050 they asked a question and said you know 184 00:08:12,930 --> 00:08:11,290 give me three knocks for a yes and one 185 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:12,940 knock for a No or something that effect 186 00:08:16,409 --> 00:08:14,290 that they could get an intelligent 187 00:08:19,250 --> 00:08:16,419 response they called us to detention 188 00:08:22,379 --> 00:08:19,260 their parents and and the parents 189 00:08:23,990 --> 00:08:22,389 experimented and and it just took off 190 00:08:27,570 --> 00:08:24,000 from there 191 00:08:30,290 --> 00:08:27,580 not only in Hyjal New York but within a 192 00:08:33,540 --> 00:08:30,300 year this was going on all around the 193 00:08:36,510 --> 00:08:33,550 world and and at least the Western world 194 00:08:38,070 --> 00:08:36,520 and and people started looking into it 195 00:08:42,089 --> 00:08:38,080 and one of the first who looked into it 196 00:08:44,219 --> 00:08:42,099 was Judge John Edmonds who was a Supreme 197 00:08:46,500 --> 00:08:44,229 Court justice in New York he was 198 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:46,510 probably the first real psychical 199 00:08:52,290 --> 00:08:49,510 researcher edmonds sat with dozens of 200 00:08:55,980 --> 00:08:52,300 mediums he thought it was all bunk 201 00:08:59,720 --> 00:08:55,990 initially but he soon came to believe it 202 00:09:02,840 --> 00:08:59,730 and he built the first real book on 203 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:02,850 psychical research called spiritualism 204 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:06,130 and then there are several others in the 205 00:09:11,490 --> 00:09:08,410 1850s Robert hare who's professor of 206 00:09:14,579 --> 00:09:11,500 chemistry at at the University of 207 00:09:17,250 --> 00:09:14,589 Pennsylvania he got into it because he 208 00:09:20,730 --> 00:09:17,260 want debunk it he thought it was just so 209 00:09:22,350 --> 00:09:20,740 much quote madness and he was out to put 210 00:09:26,329 --> 00:09:22,360 a stop to it but he became a believer 211 00:09:30,350 --> 00:09:26,339 after sitting with 22 or 23 different 212 00:09:34,230 --> 00:09:30,360 mediums and then over in France was 213 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:34,240 Allan Kardec he was conducting his own 214 00:09:39,900 --> 00:09:36,730 investigation and he also became a 215 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:39,910 believer then we go into the 1860s and 216 00:09:44,490 --> 00:09:41,890 we've got the Alpha Russell Wallace who 217 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:44,500 was a coal originator with Charles 218 00:09:48,870 --> 00:09:45,610 Darwin of the natural 219 00:09:52,530 --> 00:09:48,880 election theory and and he became he was 220 00:09:56,670 --> 00:09:52,540 a total skeptic and after sitting with a 221 00:10:01,800 --> 00:09:56,680 number of mediums he also joined the the 222 00:10:05,819 --> 00:10:01,810 believers and then up into now eighteen 223 00:10:07,500 --> 00:10:05,829 seventy that's when when the founders of 224 00:10:09,509 --> 00:10:07,510 the SP are the Society for psychical 225 00:10:12,319 --> 00:10:09,519 research began to take an interest in 226 00:10:18,690 --> 00:10:12,329 the matter Frederick Myers who was a 227 00:10:23,430 --> 00:10:18,700 lecturer at Cambridge a poet his friend 228 00:10:25,199 --> 00:10:23,440 Edwin gurney and and Henry Sedgwick they 229 00:10:28,110 --> 00:10:25,209 became interested started sitting with 230 00:10:30,180 --> 00:10:28,120 mediums and then in 1882 they decided we 231 00:10:33,420 --> 00:10:30,190 need to have a formal peer review group 232 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:33,430 to take a look at this material I that 233 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:36,010 that pretty much kicked off formal 234 00:10:39,990 --> 00:10:38,110 psychical research but as far as the 235 00:10:43,829 --> 00:10:40,000 times were concerned should be pointed 236 00:10:46,290 --> 00:10:43,839 out that the 1870s was really a time of 237 00:10:49,050 --> 00:10:46,300 despair Myers talks about this quite a 238 00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:49,060 bit and William James does too that it 239 00:10:55,590 --> 00:10:51,040 took about ten years for Darwinism to 240 00:10:57,630 --> 00:10:55,600 really kick in and that that result that 241 00:10:59,610 --> 00:10:57,640 mean even before Darwinism as you know 242 00:11:01,110 --> 00:10:59,620 the you know is the age of reason the 243 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:01,120 age of enlightenment so forth people 244 00:11:11,790 --> 00:11:08,910 Darwinism was sort of the knockout blow 245 00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:11,800 people thought well you know if the 246 00:11:16,199 --> 00:11:14,110 world wasn't created the way the Bible 247 00:11:20,189 --> 00:11:16,209 says and the whole Bible must be wrong 248 00:11:22,740 --> 00:11:20,199 and this resulted in many people 249 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:22,750 especially the educated people falling 250 00:11:28,380 --> 00:11:24,370 away from the church and having nothing 251 00:11:30,449 --> 00:11:28,390 else to fall back on and as a result 252 00:11:33,540 --> 00:11:30,459 there was a lot of what William James 253 00:11:34,980 --> 00:11:33,550 called soul sickness in fact James 254 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:34,990 himself said he suffered from soul 255 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:36,970 sickness at the time and that considered 256 00:11:41,819 --> 00:11:39,370 committing suicide does James and two 257 00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:41,829 other intellectuals at that time do they 258 00:11:49,620 --> 00:11:45,040 make that connection between this kind 259 00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:49,630 of nihilistic atheistic movement that's 260 00:11:56,430 --> 00:11:53,040 going on that's behind Darwinism and 261 00:11:59,100 --> 00:11:56,440 this soul sickness or this malaise 262 00:11:59,410 --> 00:11:59,110 that's kind of falling over people is 263 00:12:01,720 --> 00:11:59,420 the 264 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:01,730 Nexen understood at that point he 265 00:12:04,630 --> 00:12:03,050 understood that mean they they were 266 00:12:07,390 --> 00:12:04,640 looking for meaning to life a meaning 267 00:12:10,090 --> 00:12:07,400 life that had seemed to seem to have 268 00:12:12,700 --> 00:12:10,100 have disappeared with Darwinism and the 269 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:12,710 downfall of the church and they don't 270 00:12:17,710 --> 00:12:15,530 always come out and say that you know 271 00:12:19,660 --> 00:12:17,720 we're looking for evidence of the 272 00:12:23,140 --> 00:12:19,670 survival of consciousness of death in 273 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:23,150 fact the SPR when it was formed in 1882 274 00:12:26,970 --> 00:12:25,730 they carefully avoided saying that 275 00:12:28,870 --> 00:12:26,980 they're looking for evidence for 276 00:12:31,210 --> 00:12:28,880 survival and so they're looking into 277 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:31,220 telepathy our thought transference was a 278 00:12:36,310 --> 00:12:32,890 term they gave it then which is really 279 00:12:37,690 --> 00:12:36,320 later named telepathy and Mike and I 280 00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:37,700 think you point this out in your book 281 00:12:42,340 --> 00:12:39,920 but correct me if I'm wrong part of the 282 00:12:44,620 --> 00:12:42,350 reason they're going down the telepathy 283 00:12:46,930 --> 00:12:44,630 route when they're first investigating 284 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:46,940 these mediums it sounds almost so 285 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:49,370 current you know it's a repeat of so 286 00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:51,170 much the research that's been going on 287 00:12:56,350 --> 00:12:52,880 in the last 20 years and that's that 288 00:12:58,660 --> 00:12:56,360 it's more scientifically acceptable in 289 00:13:01,120 --> 00:12:58,670 kind of a strange way to say oh it's 290 00:13:03,310 --> 00:13:01,130 this ESP thing that we don't understand 291 00:13:04,750 --> 00:13:03,320 than to say it's the survival of 292 00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:04,760 consciousness thing that we don't 293 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:06,560 understand it do I have that right or is 294 00:13:11,230 --> 00:13:08,330 that not quite yeah yeah I think that's 295 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:11,240 that's the case is just more than and 296 00:13:15,100 --> 00:13:12,530 still more scientifically it's 297 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:15,110 acceptable today to talk about telepathy 298 00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:18,650 than it is to talk about survival even 299 00:13:23,230 --> 00:13:20,560 to the point where a lot of NDE 300 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:23,240 researchers won't go there when the 301 00:13:27,340 --> 00:13:25,310 connection is even more obvious I mean I 302 00:13:30,010 --> 00:13:27,350 still don't understand how you can talk 303 00:13:33,820 --> 00:13:30,020 about near-death experience research and 304 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:33,830 not immediately jump to at least dealing 305 00:13:38,380 --> 00:13:36,530 with some of the philosophical issues 306 00:13:40,630 --> 00:13:38,390 concerning survival but yet that's 307 00:13:42,220 --> 00:13:40,640 that's where a lot of folks feel they 308 00:13:45,250 --> 00:13:42,230 need to go and dance around that whole 309 00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:45,260 survival issue so this was also very 310 00:13:50,650 --> 00:13:48,320 much on the minds of these researchers 311 00:13:54,430 --> 00:13:50,660 in particular William James as he 312 00:13:57,970 --> 00:13:54,440 started this research at Harvard in 1885 313 00:14:00,160 --> 00:13:57,980 is that right that's right you told us 314 00:14:02,470 --> 00:14:00,170 just a minute ago how this research 315 00:14:06,010 --> 00:14:02,480 starts but maybe go over that period 316 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:06,020 again what is James trying to do and 317 00:14:12,090 --> 00:14:09,770 then he locks on to Leonora Piper and 318 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:12,100 then where does it go from there 319 00:14:17,190 --> 00:14:14,770 well Leonor Piper was it was probably 320 00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:17,200 the best medium that he had come across 321 00:14:22,140 --> 00:14:18,880 at least in the United States or a 322 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:22,150 couple in England that other people were 323 00:14:28,110 --> 00:14:26,290 looking at but he didn't have time to do 324 00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:28,120 an extensive study with Leonardo Piper 325 00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:32,560 so he organized he organized the 326 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:34,720 American branches this is a Society for 327 00:14:40,620 --> 00:14:37,050 psychical research and they brought in 328 00:14:43,260 --> 00:14:40,630 dr. Richard Hutchins who was a stray 329 00:14:47,780 --> 00:14:43,270 lien who was lecturing in England I he 330 00:14:53,460 --> 00:14:50,880 in England he had debunked the number of 331 00:14:55,980 --> 00:14:53,470 mediums and also went to Indian 332 00:15:00,990 --> 00:14:55,990 supposedly debunked Madame Blavatsky's 333 00:15:05,130 --> 00:15:01,000 so they pretty much assumed that Hodgson 334 00:15:06,390 --> 00:15:05,140 was gonna debunk Piper let's talk about 335 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:06,400 that for a minute because this is a 336 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:08,770 fascinating aspect of this especially 337 00:15:15,210 --> 00:15:12,250 when Hodgkin comes back later in this 338 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:15,220 story both literally comes back and 339 00:15:20,810 --> 00:15:17,730 figuratively comes back into the story 340 00:15:24,210 --> 00:15:20,820 here's a guy who as you just mentioned 341 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:24,220 goes into this with kind of a track 342 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:27,610 record of shooting down these mediums 343 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:30,910 going in and scientifically or live from 344 00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:32,530 with a legal background that he has 345 00:15:38,670 --> 00:15:36,160 saying I know enough to find the fraud 346 00:15:41,820 --> 00:15:38,680 find the trickery and expose it and it's 347 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:41,830 not like he's opposed to doing this 348 00:15:46,650 --> 00:15:43,810 research he just doesn't believe that 349 00:15:49,860 --> 00:15:46,660 it's possibly true and he's the perfect 350 00:15:53,010 --> 00:15:49,870 guy for James to kind of tap to go and 351 00:15:56,340 --> 00:15:53,020 say look at my white crow here and show 352 00:15:59,130 --> 00:15:56,350 me if she's legit right right Hutchins 353 00:16:00,540 --> 00:15:59,140 had an open mind I think and I can't 354 00:16:04,050 --> 00:16:00,550 think of the person's name offhand who 355 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:04,060 was really President of the s.p.a 356 00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:06,370 American branch the SBR at the time but 357 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:09,910 he was out to debunk mrs. Piper to his 358 00:16:13,620 --> 00:16:11,770 brother had been taken by a medium and 359 00:16:16,350 --> 00:16:13,630 he thought it was all bunk and I think 360 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:16,360 he had more of a more to do with 361 00:16:20,970 --> 00:16:18,690 choosing Hudson than James did 362 00:16:24,660 --> 00:16:20,980 interesting tell us a little bit about 363 00:16:26,009 --> 00:16:24,670 that first reading Hodgson gets with 364 00:16:27,689 --> 00:16:26,019 Leonora Piper you 365 00:16:30,119 --> 00:16:27,699 documented in the book and it's quite 366 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:30,129 fascinating yeah well I should explain 367 00:16:34,199 --> 00:16:32,050 mrs. Piper went into a trance I mean 368 00:16:36,410 --> 00:16:34,209 people don't realize it they think of 369 00:16:39,210 --> 00:16:36,420 mediums today they see John Edward and 370 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:39,220 Lisa Williams and James Van Praagh and 371 00:16:43,530 --> 00:16:41,410 so forth on the television and I think 372 00:16:45,239 --> 00:16:43,540 that clairvoyant type mediumship 373 00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:45,249 represents all of the old mediumship 374 00:16:51,090 --> 00:16:47,920 when it doesn't it's really quite a bit 375 00:16:53,369 --> 00:16:51,100 different mrs. Piper was a trans medium 376 00:16:57,419 --> 00:16:53,379 she would sit down or take her a minute 377 00:16:59,819 --> 00:16:57,429 or two to go into a trance state her 378 00:17:02,340 --> 00:16:59,829 eyes would would roll back into her head 379 00:17:05,610 --> 00:17:02,350 and all of a sudden you know her voice 380 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:05,620 would change if it was a male so that's 381 00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:09,010 what Hudson was looking at this this 382 00:17:13,919 --> 00:17:11,919 woman speaking to him in another voice 383 00:17:16,889 --> 00:17:13,929 and the voice in this case was that of 384 00:17:19,860 --> 00:17:16,899 Fred his boyhood playmate and Fred gave 385 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:19,870 up some little details as to what you 386 00:17:25,340 --> 00:17:21,850 know they did when they were boys 387 00:17:28,919 --> 00:17:25,350 playing leapfrog and and Fred actually 388 00:17:31,649 --> 00:17:28,929 had a fatal injury when he was I don't 389 00:17:33,029 --> 00:17:31,659 know 14 or something like that and there 390 00:17:34,769 --> 00:17:33,039 are other evidential details I don't 391 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:34,779 recall I'm right now but that got 392 00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:36,490 Hodgson to thinking maybe there is 393 00:17:40,830 --> 00:17:38,470 something to this you know Mike it's 394 00:17:43,710 --> 00:17:40,840 interesting I just finished an interview 395 00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:43,720 with dr. Julie beshal who I you know of 396 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:46,510 course and you wrote a nice blurb for 397 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:49,210 her recent book but in talking to Julie 398 00:17:54,450 --> 00:17:52,210 we were talking about this topic of your 399 00:17:57,810 --> 00:17:54,460 first reading and a reading with a 400 00:17:59,580 --> 00:17:57,820 medium who gives you information that's 401 00:18:02,460 --> 00:17:59,590 just highly evidential that just makes 402 00:18:04,740 --> 00:18:02,470 you go whoa there is just no way and 403 00:18:08,669 --> 00:18:04,750 it's usually personal information and 404 00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:08,679 that's how it was with Hodgson too he he 405 00:18:13,529 --> 00:18:10,510 touches on some of the information from 406 00:18:15,810 --> 00:18:13,539 his first love that he doesn't even want 407 00:18:18,419 --> 00:18:15,820 to share but it obviously affects him 408 00:18:20,370 --> 00:18:18,429 deeply and I think also and Julie 409 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:20,380 mentioned this as well you know I think 410 00:18:26,879 --> 00:18:24,490 this idea of getting around the trickery 411 00:18:28,620 --> 00:18:26,889 of a cold reading is something that 412 00:18:30,210 --> 00:18:28,630 isn't that hard to do right I mean you 413 00:18:32,129 --> 00:18:30,220 don't give out a lot of information and 414 00:18:34,169 --> 00:18:32,139 also the information that comes through 415 00:18:36,450 --> 00:18:34,179 if it's of a very personal nature that 416 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:36,460 no one else could know you immediately 417 00:18:42,450 --> 00:18:39,730 are a convert and it sounds like 418 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:42,460 in a lot of ways that's what happens to 419 00:18:48,330 --> 00:18:46,290 Hudson so even though he continues to 420 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:48,340 pursue this in a very scientific 421 00:18:52,590 --> 00:18:51,130 rigorous way and he's a very intelligent 422 00:18:55,890 --> 00:18:52,600 guy that's the other thing that comes 423 00:18:57,930 --> 00:18:55,900 through is these people are not I didn't 424 00:18:59,310 --> 00:18:57,940 want to say they're they're not inferior 425 00:19:01,560 --> 00:18:59,320 to us that you'll read them 426 00:19:03,450 --> 00:19:01,570 intellectually they're probably superior 427 00:19:06,210 --> 00:19:03,460 to us in a lot of ways certainly their 428 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:06,220 writing and their their speaking I'd 429 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:08,710 hate to have an email exchange with any 430 00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:10,210 of these people because I'd just be 431 00:19:15,870 --> 00:19:12,640 embarrassed by my grammar in my language 432 00:19:18,180 --> 00:19:15,880 these were very intelligent people so 433 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:18,190 here's a guy who has a reading and says 434 00:19:22,770 --> 00:19:20,530 wow there's something here I need to 435 00:19:23,310 --> 00:19:22,780 investigate it right so what happens 436 00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:23,320 after that 437 00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:29,280 mrs. Piper to a contract and and began 438 00:19:32,970 --> 00:19:31,510 sitting to heights and began sitting 439 00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:32,980 with her three times a week on the 440 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:35,260 average and actually just went for 18 441 00:19:40,590 --> 00:19:36,850 years he sat with her I mean outside of 442 00:19:43,020 --> 00:19:40,600 a couple of trips he took to England he 443 00:19:46,050 --> 00:19:43,030 had hundreds of the sittings with her he 444 00:19:48,810 --> 00:19:46,060 would arrange for other people to come 445 00:19:53,340 --> 00:19:48,820 in and sit with her he would be present 446 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:53,350 he'd sit there and take notes and you 447 00:19:59,490 --> 00:19:57,490 know record all this stuff you know they 448 00:20:01,470 --> 00:19:59,500 didn't do one of the problems with with 449 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:01,480 that type of research of it they didn't 450 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:04,090 really keep count as Julie julia's told 451 00:20:09,650 --> 00:20:06,250 you probably and told me that you know 452 00:20:12,750 --> 00:20:09,660 her type of research you can put some 453 00:20:15,330 --> 00:20:12,760 statistical numbers to it and you know 454 00:20:17,550 --> 00:20:15,340 you can come out say 70% correct here 455 00:20:20,340 --> 00:20:17,560 and sticky percent correct here and 456 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:20,350 chance Jessie would only be 5 percent or 457 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:22,090 whatever whereas they didn't really do 458 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:23,890 that with Piper it's just you've got to 459 00:20:29,820 --> 00:20:27,490 look at the whole research to see ask 460 00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:29,830 yourself is it possible that this 461 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:33,760 information could have come through the 462 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:37,330 you know by by pure guessing what one of 463 00:20:42,150 --> 00:20:39,130 the big problems was and William James 464 00:20:44,340 --> 00:20:42,160 didn't seem to get this in the research 465 00:20:49,770 --> 00:20:44,350 William James keeps talking about mrs. 466 00:20:51,930 --> 00:20:49,780 Piper fishing for information but she 467 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:51,940 really wasn't fishing and one of the one 468 00:20:53,460 --> 00:20:53,110 of the reasons I wrote the book is 469 00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:53,470 because 470 00:20:58,250 --> 00:20:55,600 as the scientific writers they don't 471 00:21:01,110 --> 00:20:58,260 really set the foundation for you or 472 00:21:04,470 --> 00:21:01,120 it's you know give you the background 473 00:21:06,510 --> 00:21:04,480 and they don't tell you enough to know 474 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:06,520 what you know it took me about three or 475 00:21:12,450 --> 00:21:09,130 four readings of the SPI records before 476 00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:12,460 I began to figure out what was going on 477 00:21:16,770 --> 00:21:14,350 I didn't know the difference between a 478 00:21:18,870 --> 00:21:16,780 direct voice medium and a trans voice 479 00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:18,880 medium when I first read it and that 480 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:20,950 that was confusing to me don't tell us 481 00:21:24,659 --> 00:21:22,450 what what are what are the differences 482 00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:24,669 there what a trans voice medium is one 483 00:21:31,710 --> 00:21:29,020 who the communication actually comes 484 00:21:36,990 --> 00:21:31,720 from her mouth I mean she goes into a 485 00:21:40,830 --> 00:21:37,000 trance and supposedly the spirit entity 486 00:21:43,820 --> 00:21:40,840 takes over her body and speaks right 487 00:21:46,919 --> 00:21:43,830 through her own mouth or a direct voice 488 00:21:48,450 --> 00:21:46,929 it can be transferred not necessary 489 00:21:49,799 --> 00:21:48,460 trance but the voice is coming from 490 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:49,809 another part of the room and comes 491 00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:54,970 through a a trumpeter or something who 492 00:22:00,270 --> 00:21:58,330 magnifies the voice and this totally 493 00:22:02,250 --> 00:22:00,280 said that the medium can be sitting 494 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:02,260 there talking to sub-8 next to her and 495 00:22:07,340 --> 00:22:03,610 the voice is still coming through and 496 00:22:10,620 --> 00:22:07,350 usually two or three feet above and 497 00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:10,630 above her or him and you know off to the 498 00:22:14,669 --> 00:22:12,640 right so the it's not coming through the 499 00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:14,679 medium herself the direct voice or 500 00:22:20,789 --> 00:22:18,070 sometimes called independent voice just 501 00:22:23,310 --> 00:22:20,799 comes from some point in the in the air 502 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:23,320 above the medium and you know I was at 503 00:22:26,580 --> 00:22:24,970 that time I was reading this I was 504 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:26,590 reading some you know things about 505 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:28,450 direct voice mediums as well as trans 506 00:22:33,390 --> 00:22:31,450 voice and it just didn't really sink in 507 00:22:34,909 --> 00:22:33,400 as to what the difference was but the 508 00:22:37,799 --> 00:22:34,919 biggest thing that they didn't explain 509 00:22:40,890 --> 00:22:37,809 was the control aspect they keep talking 510 00:22:45,630 --> 00:22:40,900 about mrs. Piper's and early control was 511 00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:45,640 a person called dr. Finn a PETA's spell 512 00:22:53,850 --> 00:22:51,760 Phin uit and at times they would say dr. 513 00:22:58,049 --> 00:22:53,860 Finn I said this other times it's alien 514 00:23:00,810 --> 00:22:58,059 aura Piper said this and you know it was 515 00:23:02,909 --> 00:23:00,820 very confusing and that whole control 516 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:02,919 process has never really explained what 517 00:23:07,370 --> 00:23:06,130 what happens is that on the other side 518 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:07,380 the 519 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:13,090 are able to speak through mediums for 520 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:15,610 some reason or other I think they have 521 00:23:20,519 --> 00:23:17,770 to put themselves into an altered state 522 00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:20,529 of consciousness in order to communicate 523 00:23:26,250 --> 00:23:23,230 and it's like humans trying to meditate 524 00:23:28,409 --> 00:23:26,260 there's only a certain small percentage 525 00:23:30,180 --> 00:23:28,419 of humans that are able to effectively 526 00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:30,190 meditate and I think that's the same on 527 00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:32,080 the other side there's only a small 528 00:23:35,789 --> 00:23:34,240 percentage of spirits who can put 529 00:23:38,389 --> 00:23:35,799 themselves into this altered state of 530 00:23:40,740 --> 00:23:38,399 consciousness that allows them to 531 00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:40,750 communicate through a medium at one 532 00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:43,630 point in the book you talk about mediums 533 00:23:49,649 --> 00:23:45,370 on the other side and again we should 534 00:23:53,010 --> 00:23:49,659 add that this is all just your gleaning 535 00:23:54,870 --> 00:23:53,020 this from these reports of these folks 536 00:23:58,590 --> 00:23:54,880 so it's not like you're saying this is 537 00:24:00,630 --> 00:23:58,600 this is true it's just what they've it's 538 00:24:02,370 --> 00:24:00,640 their research that you've gone back and 539 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:02,380 tried to sort through and give us the 540 00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:04,330 best you can but go back to that point 541 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:06,100 that at one point they talked about 542 00:24:10,529 --> 00:24:07,570 mediums on the other side that is 543 00:24:12,690 --> 00:24:10,539 mediums spirit mediums who are helping 544 00:24:15,690 --> 00:24:12,700 spirits on the other side connect with 545 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:15,700 the human medium on this side have that 546 00:24:20,940 --> 00:24:17,890 right that's right and that's what they 547 00:24:22,139 --> 00:24:20,950 call the control so the control was the 548 00:24:24,149 --> 00:24:22,149 medium on the other side where the 549 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:24,159 control would do would get the 550 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:26,770 information from the spirit that was 551 00:24:34,740 --> 00:24:31,090 communicating he would then pass it 552 00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:34,750 through the medium and then on to the 553 00:24:40,110 --> 00:24:38,350 community on to the the sitter there so 554 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:40,120 that there were you know there was a lot 555 00:24:46,649 --> 00:24:42,210 of distortion going on first of all the 556 00:24:50,430 --> 00:24:46,659 apparently the control doesn't receive 557 00:24:54,029 --> 00:24:50,440 the information from the communicator 558 00:24:55,919 --> 00:24:54,039 the spirit communicator verbally is is 559 00:24:58,440 --> 00:24:55,929 my thought transference so a lot of 560 00:25:02,519 --> 00:24:58,450 times the control again dr. tsanay being 561 00:25:04,289 --> 00:25:02,529 the early control he had to interpret 562 00:25:05,580 --> 00:25:04,299 what the spirits were telling him and 563 00:25:08,460 --> 00:25:05,590 then frequently he didn't interpret it 564 00:25:11,330 --> 00:25:08,470 correctly and he would fish so William 565 00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:11,340 James thought mrs. Piper was fishing but 566 00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:14,080 dr. Pinette was actually not was 567 00:25:18,810 --> 00:25:16,480 occupying mrs. fennel or mrs. Piper's 568 00:25:20,279 --> 00:25:18,820 body and he was doing the fishy he's 569 00:25:21,210 --> 00:25:20,289 trying to figure out what is this spirit 570 00:25:23,039 --> 00:25:21,220 trying to tell me 571 00:25:28,049 --> 00:25:23,049 I'm not getting it clearly and so he 572 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:28,059 would fish from this from the spirit not 573 00:25:32,909 --> 00:25:30,370 not the sitter and that's what James 574 00:25:36,029 --> 00:25:32,919 never got clearly or never stated 575 00:25:39,149 --> 00:25:36,039 clearly where Hudson and and later dr. 576 00:25:41,310 --> 00:25:39,159 James Hislop who succeeded Hodgson they 577 00:25:43,020 --> 00:25:41,320 they saw it very clear that you know 578 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:43,030 this is Piper's not fishing it's it's 579 00:25:46,409 --> 00:25:45,250 it's the spirit control who's fishing 580 00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:46,419 for information 581 00:25:51,330 --> 00:25:48,700 you know Mike you've mentioned William 582 00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:51,340 James now a couple times in less than 583 00:25:56,310 --> 00:25:54,130 glowing terms which he's always referred 584 00:25:58,890 --> 00:25:56,320 to and he wrote an interesting blog post 585 00:26:00,899 --> 00:25:58,900 a while back that I remember the title 586 00:26:04,919 --> 00:26:00,909 really sticks in my head it's a-you know 587 00:26:06,830 --> 00:26:04,929 was William James a wimp and I'd like to 588 00:26:09,390 --> 00:26:06,840 go into that for a minute because I 589 00:26:12,299 --> 00:26:09,400 think you come to the conclusion that 590 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:12,309 William James although he stepped into 591 00:26:18,419 --> 00:26:14,770 this territory that was just even at the 592 00:26:19,980 --> 00:26:18,429 time toxic in terms of career-wise to 593 00:26:23,130 --> 00:26:19,990 kind of go there and he was brave enough 594 00:26:26,250 --> 00:26:23,140 to go there he maybe didn't go as far as 595 00:26:29,490 --> 00:26:26,260 he could've in terms of advancing this 596 00:26:32,549 --> 00:26:29,500 whole area and elevating it to a 597 00:26:34,830 --> 00:26:32,559 scientific level that that would change 598 00:26:40,049 --> 00:26:34,840 the world more what would tell us about 599 00:26:42,450 --> 00:26:40,059 that yeah well he didn't want to have 600 00:26:44,399 --> 00:26:42,460 his reputation damaged by coming out and 601 00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:44,409 saying yes I believe in spirits and 602 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:46,510 spirit start communicating that might 603 00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:49,090 have ended his academic career and even 604 00:26:54,870 --> 00:26:53,110 today as you know Julie and many others 605 00:26:56,539 --> 00:26:54,880 will tell you that you know if you start 606 00:27:00,680 --> 00:26:56,549 talking about spirits in an academic 607 00:27:03,029 --> 00:27:00,690 setting you're risking losing your job 608 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:03,039 and it was much more so I guess back 609 00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:05,530 then so he had to sort of sit on the 610 00:27:09,570 --> 00:27:07,809 fence I mean I think reading between the 611 00:27:11,850 --> 00:27:09,580 lines with William James I think he 612 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:11,860 believes in spirits he he made a number 613 00:27:16,020 --> 00:27:13,450 of statements that said he was leaning 614 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:16,030 in that direction but he didn't come 615 00:27:21,390 --> 00:27:19,450 directly out like Hodgson and his lap 616 00:27:23,970 --> 00:27:21,400 and sir Oliver lodges and Frederik 617 00:27:26,130 --> 00:27:23,980 Meijer I mean they all started as 618 00:27:29,100 --> 00:27:26,140 skeptics and at some point in time they 619 00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:29,110 says okay I've got enough I now believe 620 00:27:33,870 --> 00:27:31,600 that spirits are communicating with us I 621 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:33,880 believe in life after death James never 622 00:27:36,390 --> 00:27:34,930 said that he just 623 00:27:38,550 --> 00:27:36,400 continue to sit on the fence the whole 624 00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,560 time I think there's two ways that a lot 625 00:27:42,450 --> 00:27:40,240 of times it seems like these researchers 626 00:27:44,550 --> 00:27:42,460 want to go one is to kind of play it 627 00:27:47,370 --> 00:27:44,560 tight to the vest like Williams James 628 00:27:50,370 --> 00:27:47,380 did and you can almost in reading 629 00:27:52,830 --> 00:27:50,380 between the lines read this assumption 630 00:27:55,380 --> 00:27:52,840 that they have that you know in the long 631 00:27:57,810 --> 00:27:55,390 run this will play out there's enough 632 00:27:59,940 --> 00:27:57,820 evidence behind this I don't need to 633 00:28:01,680 --> 00:27:59,950 stick my neck out all the way it's just 634 00:28:03,810 --> 00:28:01,690 gonna get chopped off it won't advance 635 00:28:05,310 --> 00:28:03,820 the cause let me kind of play this 636 00:28:07,410 --> 00:28:05,320 middle ground here even though that's 637 00:28:10,290 --> 00:28:07,420 not what I really believe in the long 638 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:10,300 run that'll get us closer and the other 639 00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:12,490 person is just kind of the convert who 640 00:28:18,750 --> 00:28:15,310 says what why we can't kind of live in 641 00:28:20,670 --> 00:28:18,760 this world of Hall of Mirrors where we 642 00:28:22,950 --> 00:28:20,680 don't say what we've really found and we 643 00:28:24,510 --> 00:28:22,960 need to come out and report it don't you 644 00:28:27,030 --> 00:28:24,520 see that same thing kind of going on 645 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:27,040 today and I guess there's you can make a 646 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:29,410 case for either one I mean sometimes if 647 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:31,570 the public at large isn't ready to 648 00:28:38,100 --> 00:28:34,690 accept an idea maybe it isn't best to go 649 00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:38,110 out with it to boldly yeah I think we 650 00:28:44,820 --> 00:28:41,710 just keep reinventing the wheel to give 651 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:44,830 you an example i'm i was at there's an 652 00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:49,690 anthology of spiritual things being put 653 00:28:54,390 --> 00:28:51,760 together by a professor in northern 654 00:28:58,560 --> 00:28:54,400 california and i was asked to write a 655 00:29:00,630 --> 00:28:58,570 five thousand word essay on ectoplasm so 656 00:29:05,550 --> 00:29:00,640 i put it together and sent it to the 657 00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:05,560 professor and and he said it's not 658 00:29:10,170 --> 00:29:07,150 balanced enough you got to put more of 659 00:29:13,770 --> 00:29:10,180 the skeptics view into it and i pointed 660 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:13,780 out to him that the researchers that i 661 00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:16,690 cited which were rachet and Gustav D Lee 662 00:29:22,490 --> 00:29:19,630 and and shrank not seeing and all those 663 00:29:24,810 --> 00:29:22,500 who who did a lot of research with 664 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:24,820 mediums who were giving off ectoplasm 665 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:27,130 they'd already they started a skeptic 666 00:29:30,770 --> 00:29:28,810 they had already ruled out the skeptical 667 00:29:33,780 --> 00:29:30,780 side of it so why do I have to bring in 668 00:29:35,340 --> 00:29:33,790 skeptics who saw it only one time or had 669 00:29:37,230 --> 00:29:35,350 to had this idea that it wasn't true 670 00:29:40,170 --> 00:29:37,240 because it you know there's no natural 671 00:29:42,990 --> 00:29:40,180 cause for it or whatever and I said it's 672 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:43,000 already been you know addressed and it's 673 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:45,130 this league for balance it's a false 674 00:29:48,690 --> 00:29:46,930 balance it's it's an art it's an 675 00:29:51,389 --> 00:29:48,700 artificial balance 676 00:29:54,389 --> 00:29:51,399 and it's really a sleight of hand in 677 00:29:57,659 --> 00:29:54,399 kind of turning science on its head it's 678 00:30:01,019 --> 00:29:57,669 the dr. Richard Wiseman quote that says 679 00:30:03,629 --> 00:30:01,029 hey ESP has been proven by the normal 680 00:30:05,789 --> 00:30:03,639 standards of science but that raises the 681 00:30:08,879 --> 00:30:05,799 question do we need a different standard 682 00:30:11,369 --> 00:30:08,889 and I think that's that gets repeated 683 00:30:14,190 --> 00:30:11,379 over and over again you know I guess I'd 684 00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:14,200 I'd pull back from that and and ask 685 00:30:19,499 --> 00:30:17,200 about the purpose of your book in 686 00:30:23,580 --> 00:30:19,509 general because you know Mike you've 687 00:30:26,489 --> 00:30:23,590 done just a yeoman's job of chronicling 688 00:30:28,529 --> 00:30:26,499 this aspect of history looking at it in 689 00:30:30,570 --> 00:30:28,539 a number of different ways that no one 690 00:30:32,879 --> 00:30:30,580 else has pulled together you have an 691 00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:32,889 interesting perspective in this book 692 00:30:37,409 --> 00:30:35,710 resurrecting Leonora Piper you know I 693 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:37,419 think there's two ways we can look at 694 00:30:43,019 --> 00:30:40,690 all this information about this period 695 00:30:44,940 --> 00:30:43,029 we can look at it in terms of forgotten 696 00:30:46,950 --> 00:30:44,950 history which is I think the angle that 697 00:30:49,129 --> 00:30:46,960 you take you know if only we would go 698 00:30:51,239 --> 00:30:49,139 back and an honest person with 699 00:30:54,590 --> 00:30:51,249 open-minded person would look at this 700 00:30:57,629 --> 00:30:54,600 data it's pretty hard not to be 701 00:30:59,609 --> 00:30:57,639 extremely aware that there's in a 702 00:31:02,639 --> 00:30:59,619 significant amount of this history 703 00:31:04,169 --> 00:31:02,649 that's been lost but I got a wonder if 704 00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:04,179 there isn't a totally different way of 705 00:31:10,229 --> 00:31:05,710 looking at this history and that's 706 00:31:13,919 --> 00:31:10,239 almost like a textbook game plan for the 707 00:31:16,979 --> 00:31:13,929 kind of scientism for the kind of spirit 708 00:31:19,409 --> 00:31:16,989 of denial that we live in today I mean 709 00:31:22,340 --> 00:31:19,419 it's almost like hey if you want to look 710 00:31:25,349 --> 00:31:22,350 at how to take overwhelmingly 711 00:31:27,299 --> 00:31:25,359 significant evidence in Burien sweep it 712 00:31:28,499 --> 00:31:27,309 under the rug and embarrass all the 713 00:31:30,570 --> 00:31:28,509 people who've touched it 714 00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:30,580 hey here here's the way to good here's 715 00:31:33,450 --> 00:31:32,289 the way to do it just go back and look 716 00:31:35,609 --> 00:31:33,460 at this part of history 717 00:31:37,619 --> 00:31:35,619 I agree I mean I mean that's one of the 718 00:31:39,029 --> 00:31:37,629 reasons I wrote this book and for other 719 00:31:41,479 --> 00:31:39,039 books that I've written is to try and 720 00:31:44,659 --> 00:31:41,489 resurrect this stuff because it's so 721 00:31:46,590 --> 00:31:44,669 little-known I know a number of 722 00:31:48,389 --> 00:31:46,600 parapsychologists you know I've talked 723 00:31:50,249 --> 00:31:48,399 to a number of parapsychologists and 724 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:50,259 they don't know it themselves that you 725 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:52,210 know you I remember one who didn't even 726 00:31:59,580 --> 00:31:55,330 know Frederick Myers was and you talked 727 00:32:01,830 --> 00:31:59,590 about you know a piper sir Oliver Lodge 728 00:32:03,540 --> 00:32:01,840 you're Gladys Osborne Leonard and 729 00:32:05,180 --> 00:32:03,550 they're all names they recognize but 730 00:32:07,890 --> 00:32:05,190 they don't know any of the history I 731 00:32:09,930 --> 00:32:07,900 don't know what they what they teach him 732 00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:09,940 when they're you know pursuing their 733 00:32:16,380 --> 00:32:12,640 degrees in parapsychology but they seem 734 00:32:20,340 --> 00:32:16,390 to escape the or avoid the early stuff 735 00:32:23,460 --> 00:32:20,350 well parapsychology formerly as it's 736 00:32:26,220 --> 00:32:23,470 taught has become really anomalous 737 00:32:28,610 --> 00:32:26,230 psychology it's why people believe weird 738 00:32:32,670 --> 00:32:28,620 things I mean that's what that's where 739 00:32:34,890 --> 00:32:32,680 parapsychology is really being taken so 740 00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:34,900 it's not surprising that they're not 741 00:32:40,260 --> 00:32:37,600 interested in history but it's from 742 00:32:43,530 --> 00:32:40,270 another perspective it is interesting 743 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:43,540 how we in our modern age in our iPhone 744 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:47,010 internet age feel a complete disconnect 745 00:32:52,650 --> 00:32:50,410 with even this history that's a little 746 00:32:53,910 --> 00:32:52,660 more than a hundred years ago one of the 747 00:32:56,790 --> 00:32:53,920 things that I think your book does a 748 00:32:59,130 --> 00:32:56,800 great job of doing is connecting us with 749 00:33:02,130 --> 00:32:59,140 that time period and connecting us with 750 00:33:05,550 --> 00:33:02,140 the events that have gone on since then 751 00:33:07,620 --> 00:33:05,560 that become really just smaller stepping 752 00:33:09,810 --> 00:33:07,630 stones that that we can see how the path 753 00:33:12,510 --> 00:33:09,820 is gone that's how I felt from the book 754 00:33:14,820 --> 00:33:12,520 I felt you know what I'm really not that 755 00:33:17,010 --> 00:33:14,830 much different than these people I don't 756 00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:17,020 know how anyone could have done it any 757 00:33:22,380 --> 00:33:19,840 different than they did so what are your 758 00:33:25,470 --> 00:33:22,390 thoughts on our connection or our lack 759 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:25,480 of connection with this time period well 760 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:27,850 I agree with you that it's you know most 761 00:33:32,910 --> 00:33:30,330 of this has been filed away and 762 00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:32,920 dust-covered cabinets and and people 763 00:33:37,050 --> 00:33:35,200 just don't know about it and part of the 764 00:33:38,940 --> 00:33:37,060 reasons not only because of the 765 00:33:40,830 --> 00:33:38,950 scientific fundamentalists but the 766 00:33:44,190 --> 00:33:40,840 religious fundamentalists they oppose it 767 00:33:45,780 --> 00:33:44,200 as much as scientific fundamentalist say 768 00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:45,790 you know read things in the Old 769 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:48,120 Testament that the dead know nothing and 770 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:51,010 you know stay away from speaking with 771 00:33:56,700 --> 00:33:55,090 the dead and so forth and and so you got 772 00:33:58,290 --> 00:33:56,710 the scientific fundamentalist on one 773 00:34:00,420 --> 00:33:58,300 side your religious fundamentalist on 774 00:34:02,010 --> 00:34:00,430 the other side and not much left in the 775 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:02,020 middle and that's why we don't know 776 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:04,330 about it today I have a very good friend 777 00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:07,090 who's a lawyer he's a born-again 778 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:09,280 Christian you know when I start talking 779 00:34:15,090 --> 00:34:12,010 to him about this he thinks I'm you know 780 00:34:18,810 --> 00:34:15,100 representing the devil I mean I all we 781 00:34:20,610 --> 00:34:18,820 he fears for my salvation because I'm I 782 00:34:21,300 --> 00:34:20,620 believe that you can communicate with 783 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:21,310 spirits 784 00:34:27,390 --> 00:34:24,330 this guy's a lawyer I mean I was a judge 785 00:34:28,740 --> 00:34:27,400 that you've chronicled this history and 786 00:34:31,260 --> 00:34:28,750 you've you've really gone much further 787 00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:31,270 than the book resurrecting Leonora Piper 788 00:34:38,130 --> 00:34:34,720 are you a believer in a pattern is there 789 00:34:41,580 --> 00:34:38,140 a direction that this is going and is it 790 00:34:44,370 --> 00:34:41,590 being directed by someone or something I 791 00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:44,380 think the early spirit communication was 792 00:34:50,310 --> 00:34:47,200 directed by the spirits themselves there 793 00:34:51,870 --> 00:34:50,320 were messages coming through through a 794 00:34:57,150 --> 00:34:51,880 number of very credible mediums that 795 00:34:59,130 --> 00:34:57,160 indicated that Benjamin Franklin working 796 00:35:03,030 --> 00:34:59,140 with Emanuel Swedenborg is the one who 797 00:35:05,250 --> 00:35:03,040 figured out how to communicate by means 798 00:35:07,740 --> 00:35:05,260 of wraps that you know that whatever it 799 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:07,750 took to get these wraps through from the 800 00:35:11,940 --> 00:35:09,610 other side it was it was Ben Franklin 801 00:35:14,610 --> 00:35:11,950 and Manuel Swedenborg who figured it out 802 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:14,620 and there were a number of other 803 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:16,330 messages indicating there's a hierarchy 804 00:35:20,430 --> 00:35:18,730 of spirits there on the other side who 805 00:35:23,010 --> 00:35:20,440 were directing this and at some point 806 00:35:25,350 --> 00:35:23,020 for the the problem was with the higher 807 00:35:26,940 --> 00:35:25,360 spirits have a more difficult time 808 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:26,950 communicating with us in the lower 809 00:35:32,460 --> 00:35:30,010 spirits because they're a very much 810 00:35:33,810 --> 00:35:32,470 higher vibration level so they have to 811 00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:33,820 come down through these various area 812 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:36,250 levels of vibration and they have to use 813 00:35:42,570 --> 00:35:40,210 lower level spirits to get through to us 814 00:35:45,740 --> 00:35:42,580 and there was one message that came 815 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:45,750 through from impair occur he was a 816 00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:48,370 supposedly high spirit that communicated 817 00:35:52,980 --> 00:35:50,110 with William stinking Moses back during 818 00:35:55,110 --> 00:35:52,990 the 1880s and he says we miss we we 819 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:55,120 misjudged we thought we would be able to 820 00:35:59,640 --> 00:35:57,610 get this information through better than 821 00:36:02,790 --> 00:35:59,650 than we have we didn't realize there's 822 00:36:08,130 --> 00:36:02,800 going to be so much interference in the 823 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:08,140 lower levels among the spirits and so 824 00:36:15,990 --> 00:36:13,090 much rejection by your scientists are 825 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:16,000 asking for better explanations so there 826 00:36:20,430 --> 00:36:17,530 were indications they pull back they 827 00:36:22,860 --> 00:36:20,440 were beginning to pull back you know 828 00:36:24,180 --> 00:36:22,870 after that and I think that's what 829 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:24,190 happened I think they just said you know 830 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:26,290 there's no point there was a lot of 831 00:36:32,250 --> 00:36:28,330 physical mediumship going on 832 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:32,260 that many genuine mediums were being 833 00:36:36,990 --> 00:36:35,290 disparaged called sheets because people 834 00:36:40,890 --> 00:36:37,000 didn't understand what was going on it 835 00:36:46,010 --> 00:36:40,900 was just beyond their comprehension that 836 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:46,020 these ectoplasm and materialized beans 837 00:36:50,850 --> 00:36:49,330 emerging out of the sector plasm and you 838 00:36:53,310 --> 00:36:50,860 know in the meantime there were actual 839 00:36:54,540 --> 00:36:53,320 frauds that became involved and people 840 00:36:56,910 --> 00:36:54,550 couldn't tell the difference between the 841 00:36:58,680 --> 00:36:56,920 frauds and the genuine mediums and so I 842 00:37:01,620 --> 00:36:58,690 think a spirit world pulled back that 843 00:37:03,780 --> 00:37:01,630 explanation always feels a little bit 844 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:03,790 Hollow I don't know if it's true it may 845 00:37:07,980 --> 00:37:05,650 be true but it feels a little bit 846 00:37:10,530 --> 00:37:07,990 lacking in the same way that you know 847 00:37:13,770 --> 00:37:10,540 I've started to delve into a little bit 848 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:13,780 the extra-terrestrial hypothesis because 849 00:37:18,330 --> 00:37:15,850 again it's this area where there's an 850 00:37:20,070 --> 00:37:18,340 overwhelming amount of evidence for a 851 00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:20,080 long period of time many credible people 852 00:37:23,430 --> 00:37:22,000 have come forward and said hey this has 853 00:37:24,870 --> 00:37:23,440 happened there's this extended 854 00:37:26,730 --> 00:37:24,880 consciousness we connect with these 855 00:37:28,860 --> 00:37:26,740 other beings and then you have the whole 856 00:37:31,140 --> 00:37:28,870 psychedelic field and they're their 857 00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:31,150 research matches up with that and you 858 00:37:37,470 --> 00:37:34,030 have the DMT stuff and dr. Rick 859 00:37:39,660 --> 00:37:37,480 Strassman and people in the Amazon who 860 00:37:41,430 --> 00:37:39,670 are seeing aliens the same way that 861 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:41,440 these people are seeing aliens there's 862 00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:43,450 this whole body of extended 863 00:37:48,450 --> 00:37:45,910 consciousness and you again run into the 864 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:48,460 same kind of problem it which is if 865 00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:50,770 there's this extended consciousness of 866 00:37:57,210 --> 00:37:54,400 other beings we'll call them aliens 867 00:37:59,220 --> 00:37:57,220 why aren't they landing on the White 868 00:38:02,040 --> 00:37:59,230 House lawn and we could say the same 869 00:38:04,470 --> 00:38:02,050 thing with our spirits here you know 870 00:38:07,230 --> 00:38:04,480 they're really so limited that they 871 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:07,240 can't communicate with us in a more 872 00:38:12,270 --> 00:38:09,610 effective way we have all these folks 873 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:12,280 that come forward as Chandler's or as 874 00:38:15,780 --> 00:38:14,290 people who have had this special 875 00:38:18,210 --> 00:38:15,790 connection with these spirits and say 876 00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:18,220 hey here it is here is everything you 877 00:38:22,500 --> 00:38:20,160 need to know and they're often 878 00:38:25,110 --> 00:38:22,510 contradictory one contradicts another I 879 00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:25,120 just talked to Chris Carter he's written 880 00:38:30,030 --> 00:38:28,480 an excellent book and in there a part of 881 00:38:31,530 --> 00:38:30,040 our conversation she says hey I've come 882 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:31,540 to the conclusion that we reincarnate 883 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:34,930 three to four times because one of the 884 00:38:38,310 --> 00:38:37,090 sources that he had that's he felt was 885 00:38:40,020 --> 00:38:38,320 very credible and that was their 886 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:40,030 information well that idea is 887 00:38:45,570 --> 00:38:42,010 contradicted by you 888 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:45,580 any number of near death experience 889 00:38:52,380 --> 00:38:48,010 accounts medium accounts and and an 890 00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:52,390 other Gnostic texts that will tell you 891 00:38:57,570 --> 00:38:54,910 that that's not at all true so those are 892 00:39:01,320 --> 00:38:57,580 the kind of explanations that even for 893 00:39:04,260 --> 00:39:01,330 the open-minded person I think creates a 894 00:39:06,570 --> 00:39:04,270 lot of a lot of confusion a lot of 895 00:39:08,610 --> 00:39:06,580 uncertainty do you know where I'm 896 00:39:10,650 --> 00:39:08,620 heading there I understand that but you 897 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:10,660 know the other thing I was gonna say is 898 00:39:14,580 --> 00:39:12,490 that you know I'm not sure that we're 899 00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:14,590 supposed to know you know with certainty 900 00:39:22,470 --> 00:39:17,920 I think right you know the one quote 901 00:39:26,070 --> 00:39:22,480 that I cited a number of times and 902 00:39:30,420 --> 00:39:26,080 several of my books comes from Victor 903 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:30,430 Hugo's research back in the 1850s he was 904 00:39:36,630 --> 00:39:32,290 sitting with a number of mediums and and 905 00:39:38,010 --> 00:39:36,640 he asked one will whoever he's 906 00:39:41,370 --> 00:39:38,020 communicating with through this one 907 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:41,380 reading he asked you know why you know 908 00:39:47,310 --> 00:39:43,450 why is it so difficult why doesn't God 909 00:39:48,930 --> 00:39:47,320 better reveal themselves and right he 910 00:39:50,490 --> 00:39:48,940 was actually as Martin Luther's 911 00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:50,500 supposedly Martin Luther that was 912 00:39:55,020 --> 00:39:51,730 communicating with it at the time and 913 00:39:57,240 --> 00:39:55,030 Martin Luther replied says because doubt 914 00:39:58,890 --> 00:39:57,250 is the instrument which forges the human 915 00:40:01,350 --> 00:39:58,900 spirit if the day were to come when the 916 00:40:03,330 --> 00:40:01,360 human spirit no longer doubted the human 917 00:40:06,270 --> 00:40:03,340 soul would fly off and leave the cloud 918 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:06,280 behind for would have required acquired 919 00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:10,330 wings the earth would be be fallow now 920 00:40:14,370 --> 00:40:12,250 God is the sower and man is the harvest 921 00:40:16,980 --> 00:40:14,380 here the celestial seed demands that the 922 00:40:19,230 --> 00:40:16,990 human plowshare remain in the furrow of 923 00:40:20,970 --> 00:40:19,240 life so in effect what he was saying is 924 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:20,980 that we have to you know if we knew 925 00:40:25,290 --> 00:40:23,050 everything for sure it would take away a 926 00:40:28,650 --> 00:40:25,300 lot of the challenges of the reason the 927 00:40:33,570 --> 00:40:28,660 the reason we're here living this earth 928 00:40:36,990 --> 00:40:33,580 life and it would hinder our progress so 929 00:40:38,940 --> 00:40:37,000 I I guess that's the answer that we're 930 00:40:41,090 --> 00:40:38,950 you know we're not meant to know for 931 00:40:43,220 --> 00:40:41,100 sure but we can at least have some 932 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:43,230 assurance I keep saying you know we're 933 00:40:50,130 --> 00:40:47,130 we're never going to get absolute proof 934 00:40:54,570 --> 00:40:50,140 that consciousness survives death but we 935 00:40:55,710 --> 00:40:54,580 can at least move up to the 99% belief 936 00:40:57,630 --> 00:40:55,720 level 937 00:41:00,870 --> 00:40:57,640 yeah fair enough I wonder if we don't 938 00:41:02,910 --> 00:41:00,880 also run into a problem when we put we 939 00:41:06,750 --> 00:41:02,920 in there instead of I one of the 940 00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:06,760 conclusions I've come to is that this is 941 00:41:13,589 --> 00:41:10,510 about each person's personal journey 942 00:41:16,589 --> 00:41:13,599 soul journey if you want to go there but 943 00:41:18,270 --> 00:41:16,599 just your journey through understanding 944 00:41:20,970 --> 00:41:18,280 and advancing yourself and trying to 945 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:20,980 understand so I often wonder if when we 946 00:41:24,780 --> 00:41:22,690 start saying we and start generalizing 947 00:41:26,940 --> 00:41:24,790 and saying this how all people I don't 948 00:41:30,390 --> 00:41:26,950 know I don't know how anyone else is I'm 949 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:30,400 on my own little path my own little 950 00:41:35,310 --> 00:41:33,130 journey and it may be relatable to you 951 00:41:38,460 --> 00:41:35,320 and to other people but it may just be 952 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:38,470 the way God for lack of a better term 953 00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:41,650 has set things up to play out for me I 954 00:41:46,770 --> 00:41:44,710 think so I agree well Mike it's been 955 00:41:48,390 --> 00:41:46,780 great this is a great book that people 956 00:41:51,420 --> 00:41:48,400 should really check out again it's 957 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:51,430 resurrecting Leonora Piper how science 958 00:41:58,020 --> 00:41:53,530 discovered the afterlife it's 959 00:42:00,690 --> 00:41:58,030 fascinating to just discover these great 960 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:00,700 minds and how they handled some of the 961 00:42:05,130 --> 00:42:02,770 same questions that we seem to be 962 00:42:07,950 --> 00:42:05,140 wrestling with over and over again today 963 00:42:09,839 --> 00:42:07,960 so a great book and thanks so much for 964 00:42:12,329 --> 00:42:09,849 joining me Mike thanks very much for 965 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:12,339 having me on Alex I appreciate it thanks 966 00:42:16,890 --> 00:42:13,930 again to Mike Tim for joining me today 967 00:42:19,130 --> 00:42:16,900 on skeptical a couple of questions I'd T 968 00:42:22,740 --> 00:42:19,140 up for you that we might want to discuss 969 00:42:25,470 --> 00:42:22,750 the first obviously is what do you make 970 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:25,480 of Leonora Piper was she really tapping 971 00:42:30,180 --> 00:42:28,330 into a spiritual dimension beyond this 972 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:30,190 world that allowed her to communicate 973 00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:32,290 with the dead I think the evidence is 974 00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:34,390 pretty overwhelming and I think it's and 975 00:42:38,370 --> 00:42:36,310 I think it's especially interesting to 976 00:42:41,550 --> 00:42:38,380 look at the testing and challenging that 977 00:42:44,130 --> 00:42:41,560 they did of her abilities and the extent 978 00:42:46,170 --> 00:42:44,140 to which she wished did that testing so 979 00:42:48,510 --> 00:42:46,180 I'd be interested to see what you think 980 00:42:51,060 --> 00:42:48,520 if you think she was properly tested and 981 00:42:53,460 --> 00:42:51,070 if you think she was stood those tests 982 00:42:56,070 --> 00:42:53,470 and the second question I'd offer up and 983 00:42:59,220 --> 00:42:56,080 I guess you probably saw this coming is 984 00:43:03,510 --> 00:42:59,230 what does this episode in history mean 985 00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:03,520 to us right now in terms of this push 986 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:05,920 for a paradigm change or this push 987 00:43:09,550 --> 00:43:08,650 towards an evolution in consciousness or 988 00:43:12,310 --> 00:43:09,560 this sense 989 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:12,320 of moving forward and I guess there's 990 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:15,290 really two sub questions that go with 991 00:43:19,420 --> 00:43:17,450 that the first is hey haven't we been 992 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:19,430 there before anyone who thinks we're at 993 00:43:24,670 --> 00:43:21,770 the cusp of some kind of paradigm change 994 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:24,680 needs to go back and look at this part 995 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:26,450 of history and see how you can get 996 00:43:31,810 --> 00:43:28,970 pretty darn close and then you can fall 997 00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:31,820 back down into the materialistic abyss 998 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:34,640 and the second part of the sub question 999 00:43:41,620 --> 00:43:38,570 of that is where do we get the arrogance 1000 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:41,630 to think that that we know so much or 1001 00:43:47,050 --> 00:43:44,930 that we're discovering anything are we 1002 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:47,060 so mesmerised with our little toys and 1003 00:43:53,050 --> 00:43:49,970 gadgets that we can't step back and look 1004 00:43:55,060 --> 00:43:53,060 at how in adequately we've addressed the 1005 00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:55,070 biggest most important scientific 1006 00:44:00,370 --> 00:43:57,890 questions and that the underlying reason 1007 00:44:02,530 --> 00:44:00,380 we've been so inadequate is because 1008 00:44:05,290 --> 00:44:02,540 we've been willfully ignorant and 1009 00:44:08,740 --> 00:44:05,300 willfully blind of answering those 1010 00:44:10,930 --> 00:44:08,750 questions okay now I don't know how 1011 00:44:13,420 --> 00:44:10,940 anyone is gonna unravel that and answer 1012 00:44:15,580 --> 00:44:13,430 that as one question but hey but you can 1013 00:44:17,830 --> 00:44:15,590 just do your best and we'll see what you 1014 00:44:20,140 --> 00:44:17,840 come up with of course the place to do 1015 00:44:21,970 --> 00:44:20,150 that and to respond and to share with me 1016 00:44:26,650 --> 00:44:21,980 your thoughts is on the skeptical 1017 00:44:28,090 --> 00:44:26,660 website at sk EPT Iko calm you can do so 1018 00:44:30,550 --> 00:44:28,100 by adding a comment right there on the 1019 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:30,560 website or clicking on over to the forum 1020 00:44:35,050 --> 00:44:32,650 and joining a discussion over there 1021 00:44:37,990 --> 00:44:35,060 while there you can also check out our 1022 00:44:40,780 --> 00:44:38,000 over 200 previous episodes of skeptic oh 1023 00:44:43,060 --> 00:44:40,790 they're all there on the past shows page 1024 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:43,070 and you can also connect with me and 1025 00:44:46,660 --> 00:44:44,930 drop me an email or connect with me on 1026 00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:46,670 Facebook well that's going to do it for 1027 00:44:51,460 --> 00:44:48,710 this episode of skeptic Oh many 1028 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:51,470 interesting shows in the hopper going a 1029 00:44:55,810 --> 00:44:53,330 number of different directions they're 1030 00:44:58,450 --> 00:44:55,820 all fun and exciting for me and I hope